I should point out that the people running this camp stated: "As for the evangelical community, my focus as a minister has basically been to bring an awareness to the Body of Christ (i.e. people who are committed followers of Jesus) of the potential spiritual dynamos we have in our children. My hope is that Christians will look past all the political mumbo jumbo and see this film for what it is--as one news source said, this is a movie about extreme faith, not politics. It's also about the importance of discipling children in the Christian faith. My hope is they will be able to see the more obvious truth which is children are capable of understanding, feeling, being an enthusiastic, and powerfully effective part of extreme faith in Jesus Christ because this is an extreme generation."
ConcernedFather said -
This camp is sick sick sick.Christian Eye said -
No one should have the right to tamper with the minds of young kids like that. This camp is a sect - nothing else. This is the equivalent of bringing kids to a KKK or neo-Nazi meeting! The authorities should intervene, and the people responsible - parents and organisers, should be brought to court.
Give the poor things a chance to make up their mind, please. Religious teaching - of any kind - should only begin at maturity. Education should concentrate on fostering compassion and respect for others - something that most religions claim that they support but fail (miserably) to implement. Have you read the newspaper lately?
Religious people, of course, would never agree to that. They are afraid that there would be very few takers at the end! That is why institutionalized religions understood a long time ago that they must start their indoctrination early in a child's life. No human beings raised in a rational environment would take all those superstitions seriously. Normal people grow up and stop believing in Santa Claus.
What the next step? Christian schools where all subject matters are forbidden except religion? Oh yeah, we know that you religious people like you have only one book on your shelves… Not that you've read it of course (otherwise you might realise that it contains quite a few atrocious recommendations...).
I'm so tired of seeing religions spoil my world, and the world of my children. So tired of those small, scared people who hate rationality, knowledge (and in general, women).
Ooohhh what a pity. The world is in a pretty bad state right now, and is in deep need of compassion, not more religious fanaticism.
The only thing I will say at this time to this comment is that no one is forcing these children. There may be the rare exception of a mother who is an dictator in her Christian home and insists on it but most of them are coming to camps like these of their own accord. They are not being brain-washed. They are being taught. I'm sorry if you feel venomous towards religion but try to look around you and see that Christianity, true Christianity, is not like other religions. Also, see my post for today - When are We Teaching?ConcernedFather said -
I believe you. I am convinced that the children went to the camp wholeheartedly - in the same way that German youth went to the Hitler-Jugend training camps.Young children are trusting little creatures that can easily be influenced, which is why we have laws against adults trying to seduce them, for instance (this is just an example - I am not inferring anything about the camp here).And here is my response to that today:
As for your remark about Christianity, I'm sure that any good muslim, hinduist or buddhist would claim the same thing.
If we were to lists all the gods of all the religions in a small book (there are about 2000) with say a short description, your's would appear on page 46..or 74...or 87... But you would point to it and claim to be absolutely sure that it is the only 'real' god. From my perspective, this would be funny...if the consequences for humanity were not so disastrous.
ConcernedFather - thanks for writing again. I appreciate your willingness to have open dialogue without getting to emotional in your verbage... or vulgar.
I have lots of things going through my head that I could tell you. The only thing I think I can tell you in this limited space right now is to remember that even atheism is a religion. It is a religion of self. Most people would clasify a religion as having faith in something you cannot see and worshiping a greater power. When a child asks "why do I have to go to school" you answer "to get an education and get smart". When they ask why, you say "so you can do great things in this world". When they ask why again you answer "to help other people" or "to become powerful". When they ask why another time you say "because I said so!".
The point is that adults have to ask the same questions about life until they finally get to a question they can't answer. At this point they have their "absolute truth". Where did I come from, why am I here, who really cares? With Christians this absolute truth comes from God. With atheists this absolute truth come from the universe and man. You have to have faith that you are right, though, because you don't have the answers. The twist is that Christians have a document that from your point of view is just that - a document. But as a historical document alone time and time again man has tried to prove it wrong and time and again it has been found right. Whereas the evidence for atheism time and time again is found to be flawed and had to be "corrected".
Then, back to our children, the moral side asks the question - what do you want your kids to learn? Compassion? Matthew 14:14 (King James Version)- "And Jesus went forth, and saw a great multitude, and was moved with compassion toward them, and he healed their sick." Love? John 15:13 (New King James Version) - "Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends." Peace? Matthew 5:9 (New King James Version) - "Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God." Those things that are good to teach our children will be found in the Bible. Philippians 4:8 (New King James Version) - "Finally, brethren, whatever things are true, whatever things are noble, whatever things are just, whatever things are pure, whatever things are lovely, whatever things are of good report, if there is any virtue and if there is anything praiseworthy—meditate on these things."
I know I'm not going to change your mind in this one comment but it may help you see where I'm coming from. Atheism is just another religion and religion in general can not be blamed for problems in our society (though sin can be blamed and even Christians sin, screw up and do foolish - even evil - things).
I encourage you to read some of my other posts as they should give you context for who I am and what I believe. Here are some other blogs with good answers:
Paul's Ponderings: Making Himself Known
Bird's of the Air: To Know the Unknowable
Just a Redneck Hangin out with Jesus: You Need to Understand
PostalOne: Forgiveness Knows No Limits
AnswersInGenesis: Creation - Where's the Proof?
God bless,
Chris
5 comments:
I feel I need to also let you know ConcernedFather, that Christianity (to me) is not mearly religion. I used to be Mormon, all details aside I see mormanism as religion with rules and regulations that you are supposed to follow to be "good enough" for God to bless you.
True Christianity for me is a true honest loving relationship with Jesus the son and God the father. Jesus is my friend, my best friend even, and he wants to give me good gifts, whether I'm "good enough" or not. He wants to give you good gifts too. But being the gentleman he is, he doesn't want to impose upon you.
When I talk about my beliefs I don't talk about religion, I talk about Jesus and how we've been getting to know eachother better over the past year or so.
God Bless!
Wow, what a powerful discussion. And how true it is! That's one of today's biggest debates. How is Christianity and different from Nazi's, Muslims, Mormons, Jehovah's Witnesses, Catholicism...? The list goes on.
One of the first things I noticed ConcernedFather saying was religion. What an ugly word to me. Religion is so strict, endoctrinated, forceful. The way I view Christianity is not as religion, but more as faith and love. Not everyone is going to know what theology you are talking about or even ask about it.
Whenever someone asks me what religion I am, I tell them that I am not into religion. I'm a Christian, a follower of Christ Jesus. I am into loving Him and His teachings.
I don't want this to be a blog on its own so I want to end with these question. What is so wrong about following Christ's teachings? What's the worst that could happen, you become a moral person?
Keri and Tommy make good points. Both lean towards what I was trying to tell ConcernedFather. There is a glaring difference between Christianity and other religions. I stayed away from the personal Christian aspect and tried to make my views known based on the secular point of view but even still - both very good comments!
Chris
All religions believe in supernatural beings or causes, but atheists refuse supernatural explanations, mostly because “extraordinary claims require extraordinary proof…(Sagan)”. Thus atheism cannot be a religion. To use a cliché, if atheism is a religion, then “not collecting stamp” is a hobby.
Like all human beings, atheists ask themselves these deep existential questions. But there is nothing wrong with not knowing all of the answer. Sometimes, “I don’t know” is the only honest answer and all others – whether they come from books written 3000 years ago or from the astrology column of you local tabloid – are simply illusions.
To quote Sagan again, “it is far better to grasp the Universe as it really is than to persist in delusion, however satisfying and reassuring”. Of course, this requires courage: the intellectual courage to admit one’s ignorance, and the courage to live without answers, and without certainties. But I would go as far as to say that this ability to answer the Sisyphean challenge of living in an absurd world is man’s most remarkable trait.
And you know what? Since we as a species have started to refuse dogma - to refuse to believe that the earth is at the center of the universe, or that the sun was carried by Râ on his chariot - since then, we’ve also started to find SOME answers. Not all of course. But we know a lot more now than we did, and in my view our humble attempts at analyzing this universe with our simple tools constitute our noblest quest.
As for your question about what I want my kids to learn, let me answer by the absurd. Here is what I DON’T want them to learn:
Deuteronomy 13:6 (King James Version) If thy brother, the son of thy mother, or thy son, or thy daughter, or the wife of thy bosom, or thy friend, which is as thine own soul, entice thee secretly, (…)thou shalt surely kill him; thine hand shall be first upon him to put him to death, and afterwards the hand of all the people.
Matthew 10:34 (King James version) Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword. For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law. And a man's foes shall be they of his own household. He that loveth father or mother more than me is not worthy of me: and he that loveth son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me.
Proverb 23:13 (New King James Version) Do not withhold correction from a child, For if you beat him with a rod, he will not die. You shall beat him with a rod, And deliver his soul from hell.
Teaching this to kids would be highly irresponsible.
Again, I think that the world is in a pretty bad shape right now. We need actions (not prayers) tolerance (not clans), and people with the courage to see the world as it is (no more illusions). I encourage you to review you beliefs, and if not to abandon them at least to put them on the backburner, as a political gesture to make this world a better place for our children.
ConcernedFather - I want you to know that I will be responding to your comments but, once again, I have too much to say in a comment field. I will be posting my comments as another post. Today, however, is my wife's day. I let her post on Sundays. I could post too but that would take away some of the spotlight on what she has said. I want to honor her and not diminish her work. I will post my comments on Monday.
Chris
Post a Comment